oh, fraser.

[schmerica]

1) You should all tell fox1013 to write me Giles/Jack Bristow crossover fic. No, really. REALLY.

2) It has been too long since we had a good discussion of Benton Fraser's sex life in my journal! Come gather around, my lovelies.

Things I assume are true and explicit in canon, and therefore expect in any story I read:

Fraser slept with Victoria in Victoria's Secret (multiple times).

Things I tend to take as true when I write about Fraser, but not necessarily when I read:

I tend to read Fraser as pretty firmly bisexual.

I think Fraser probably jerks off on a regular basis. (And by regular, I mean regular; it's like stretching your muscles! It's medicinal, almost.)

I usually think that Fraser and Victoria's first meeting in the blizzard has some sexual component to it.

Stuff that's really fun to look at in a bazillion different ways:

Sometimes Victoria's the only one; sometimes it's her and a few other women; sometimes he's done it with boys and girls. I have a soft spot for guy-on-guy experimentation as a teenager, really, but that's my own kinks.

I'm not really a F/V slasher, but there are times on my viewings of s1 and s2 that I get the feeling that one of them is in love with the other -- but I can never tell if either of them is actually aware of it.

I do tend to think he knows he's attracted to Ray Kowalski pretty early on, but maybe not; denial or first male sexual experience can work as well.

All that said, it's hard sometimes to get a grasp on exactly how and what Fraser thinks about sex. There's definitely a rejection of the unconcious American macho male approach to it, but I think a lot of the dependence of him as deliberately asexual or devoted to the chivalry of "Heaven + Earth" can end up a little oversimplified. There has to be a balance between Fraser's unwieldliness at love and emotion, and his appreciation for the importance of body and mind, doesn't there?

In conclusion: Fraser is hot. Please to be telling me about his entire sexual history! *waits*

Comments

[mrsronweasley.livejournal.com]

You know, one of the most sexually-charged bits of dS for me is the back rub in "Odds", and it says so much about him. He knows exactly what's happening, he knows exactly what it could lead to, and, to be perfectly frank, the noises he makes are not made by a person of very limited sexual experience. Even his interactions with Victoria, when she comes back to his room and they kiss and end up having sex, he takes over, he's almost in charge (we know, of course, who's really in charge, emotionally, but that's a bit different). I see Fraser as somebody who has done...quite a bit, but doesn't take it too lightly, and doesn't share. He just doesn't. He has his own experiences, but he...hmmm. He keeps them close.

When he's all awkward with women in the beginning, and overwhelmed, it isn't because it's WOMEN or even because he's secretly gay and doesn't know what to do with them, but it's because they're different kinds of women.

I do firmly believe he is bisexual. In canon. And I agree that he's attracted to Ray K. from pretty much the beginning. I believe the sexual undercurrents are absolutely there, without a doubt. I think Fraser would find bisexuality natural, and after a while of soul-searching, come to accept it whole-heartedly.

I'm not really a F/V slasher, but there are times on my viewings of s1 and s2 that I get the feeling that one of them is in love with the other -- but I can never tell if either of them is actually aware of it.

Yes. Yes. I can see that. I don't think anything ever happened, but there was a bond there that was...special. Somehow. But nothing ever happened, I don't think. Maybe towards the end, thus the conversation in BdtH. MAYBE.

Yay, Fraser!

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, yeah, I agree with you for the most part, I think! Although I could still see limited sexual experience, I think -- I just don't think it means that he himself isn't still a really sexual person.

The thing with Ray K I can totally see from the beginning -- I don't think Ray really gets it until MotB, but, you know, as early as Strange Bedfellows, the way Fraser looks at Ray and wants to take away his pain and protect him, and god forbid, even goes to Bob for romantic advice! Sigh.

[mrsronweasley.livejournal.com]

OMG, I fail at coding. *sigh* JUST noticed that. Ah, well.

Yeah, you're right: sexual person, limited experience. There's just something...there...that doesn't quite fit. Maybe it's me railing against all the fic I've read where he's basically a blushing virgin. That doesn't feel right at all.

And God, yes. SB - they look he gives Ray in the car...Christ. It could melt your face. *g* And going to Bob - I never really noticed the significance until the other day, when I was rewatching it. It just kind of hit me. He's asking romantic advice. Oh, Fraser. I really do adore him.

And speaking of Bob! Okay, this will sound nuts, but I think in CotW, he gives Fraser his blessing with a look. Like...okay, you know when they're climbing the mountain? And Ray is all completely out of it, talking about green ships and red ships? Well, Bob gives Fraser this look, like... "Is this really what you want, son? Are you sure? Well, if you're sure..." I may be reading too much into it, but it's been making me so happy, eversince I first saw it. Just...awww. Bob. It's okay, Bob. Your grandchildren wouldn't have been able to see you, anyway. Oh. Wait.

Damn.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you're right: sexual person, limited experience. There's just something...there...that doesn't quite fit. Maybe it's me railing against all the fic I've read where he's basically a blushing virgin. That doesn't feel right at all.

Hee, yeah, I TOTALLY understand, dude. Like, yes, he does not choose to be sexually active very often -- but look at when he DOES. VS /= timid, shy, inexperienced Fraser!

Also, I think maybe the fact that Ces's entire oeuvre was the first stuff I really read in the fandom is probably part of the reason why I tend to be able to see a gazillion different ways of approaching his history (which I might not be able to do in other fandoms as much) -- because, um, she wrote a gazillion different ways and made them all work.

The thing is, Bob seems to really like RayK! I don't even know why. But just look at the difference between Dead Man Running, where he's telling Fraser to do the right thing and turn Vecchio in, and Asylum, where he's telling Fraser to follow his heart. WEIRD.

[mrsronweasley.livejournal.com]

but look at when he DOES.

Oh, I do. Over and over. In my mind. *g* ROWR. God, he's hot when he's all...there. Doing his...thing. Gah. You know? I'm so damn coherent.

And yeah, there are definitely a lot of ways of looking at it. Just some of them...don't work in my head. But my head is stubborn that way.

And yes, he does! In "North" he kept telling Fraser to leave Vecchio, while...well, okay, he did suggest "leaving the Yank in the snow" (still one of my favorite lines EVER, by the way, as is Fraser's response) but he tells Fraser, over and over, how important partnership is. It's like a marriage! Yeah. No shit, Bob. *g*

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Gah, him and Victoria in that ep, with the crying and the beating and then the kissing and .... it's SO one of the hottest things ever. Man. *goes to happy place*

[starfishchick]

Like, yes, he does not choose to be sexually active very often -- but look at when he DOES. VS /= timid, shy, inexperienced Fraser!

Yes, yes, yes.

And I agree that Bob really does like RayK. All of the MotB comments about partnership being like a marriage, trusting your partner, "you need the Yank", etc. (Until CotW when he suggests leaving him in the snow, durr.)

[joandarck.livejournal.com]

I'm not really a F/V slasher, but there are times on my viewings of s1 and s2 that I get the feeling that one of them is in love with the other -- but I can never tell if either of them is actually aware of it.

I don't think anything ever happened, but there was a bond there that was...special. Somehow. But nothing ever happened, I don't think.

That's my take on it too. There's something there, but I don't think it happened. And I think maybe it's better that way?

[zeenell]

I tend to read Fraser as someone who is very interested in sex - but not without some sort of commitment.

RayK is (the picture of, but he really isn't) the bad boy you take home to piss off your parents. RayV is the one you take home because you want to be comfortable. Fraser is the weird one - he radiates tightly controlled/repressed passion. Find the right button and he could be worse than RayK, but without the button.... he would be safer than RayV. (nt that V is safe, but... he just seems more so than the others, at least, before Bookman).

Also, Fraser was taken from place to place, and if he wanted commitment, he might not have "messed" around with anyone besides possibly Insuiq (wow, that is off) or, erm,... Julie? Since he knew them and probably crossed paths with them numerous times growing up.

If Mark had been older when he moved away, than yes, Fraser might have experimented with him. But Mark did go, and I'm not sure if the Fraser I picture was in puberty at 13. I get the feeling he was a late bloomer, which is what makes him even more awkward around women. By the time he was interested, he would feel stupid and awkward approaching female partners. Guys are easier.

So, my fraser's first experience was with a guy. ^-^

Then, when Victoria came, he was swept up in the whole mystique of star-crossed lovers. He made a commitment to her (somehow...) and after that he didn't sleep with anyone. He was going to keep his word, and he did. Then she came back and screwed him over.

For some reason, I feel that when he went back home for a vacation, he healed from Victoria. And then there was RayK. And then there was Sex.


So not sure if this is what you want, or if this makes sense.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Hee, no, I'm totally interested! I like the idea of the late bloomeryness, especially connected with him as an outsider, always moving around.

[zeenell]

See, my main thing is that even though I don't think Fraser had a lot of partners, that doesn't meanhe is inexpereinced.

Fraser prolly went on a "camping trip" and spent a week with whomever having sex.

[fox1013.livejournal.com]

...Do you really think that I'm easy enough that your flist pestering me will get me to write you Giles/Jack Bristow?

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Is this a trick question? DUH.

I can't resist the winning combo of FRASER and SEX.

[woo2step.livejournal.com]

I wholeheartedly encourage any and all endeavors to put Jack Bristow into the Buffyverse.

Somewhere along the line, I decided that Ray and Fraser had their first sexual experience after the bathroom scene in Odds. It is so charged with things they aren't saying to each other, they both look incredibly tense and unsure ... the next thing you know, they are on, they're together. Their duet is working the best it has since, I think, the period on the ship after their buddy-breathing episode.

I keep hoping for fic that shows their first time occurring in that manner, but it NEVER COMES.

I'm not really a F/V slasher, but there are times on my viewings of s1 and s2 that I get the feeling that one of them is in love with the other -- but I can never tell if either of them is actually aware of it.

That's always been my interpretation. If I could, I would read it as entirely platonic, but I can't help but wonder if Ray Vecchio has feelings for Fraser that he's not entirely ready to deal with. Fraser, on the other hand ... I never get that impression from him. I can see how it would have been very easy for him to fall in love with Ray. He was one of the few people in Fraser's life to ever show him real kindness and friendship, and I think that could have turned to romantic love. Indications that it did? I couldn't think of a one, really.

Re: I can't resist the winning combo of FRASER and SEX.

[nightlarke.livejournal.com]

Erm. That was me trying and FAILING to reply to your comment. Right there on the page, underneath your comment. Yup.

*headdesk*

Re: I can't resist the winning combo of FRASER and SEX.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

I don't know -- does the sex lead to the duet thing, or does the duet thing lead to them consummating there? Hm.

Re: I can't resist the winning combo of FRASER and SEX.

[starfishchick]

Oh, I love love love Odds for many reasons (the history of poker, the HANDHOLDING, Thatcher talking about the Latin influence, Fraser quoting 'Paradise Lost', the guys teaching Fraser to play poker, Ray and Welsh on the couch, Frannie and the hat questions, Fraser in a tux, Ray and the SKYLIGHT, etc.) but oh, the Ray/Fraser interaction at the end makes my heart almost explode in joy.

An IOU on air? You can't tell me that's not flirting.

Re: I can't resist the winning combo of FRASER and SEX.

[joandarck.livejournal.com]

An IOU on air? You can't tell me that's not flirting.

"I want you to honour your wager"? !!!! Indeed.

[nightlarke.livejournal.com]

It is so charged with things they aren't saying to each other, they both look incredibly tense and unsure ... the next thing you know, they are on, they're together.

Somewhere along the line, I decided that Ray and Fraser had their first sexual experience after the bathroom scene in Odds. Omigod, you are so totally RIGHT! It makes the IOU joking around make perfect sense. Playing cards, knees touching comfortably. Insecurities quelled in lieu(sp?) of something new and exciting, and yet... solid.

DAMN. I want to write that, and I NEVER write fic. May I have your plot bunny?

[listersgirl]

See, yeah, to me it's like...not blushing virgin, but Fraser really strikes me as the kind of person who wouldn't want sex without love; I think the two are pretty intrinsically tied together for him.

So I can buy that Victoria was the only one, or that there were other people in the past, but he just doesn't talk about them, because relationships are a private thing for him.

Either way, though, I think Fraser in bed would be needy and tactile and focused, because sex and touching and body contact are important, partly because they're tied up with emotions for him, and partly because (in my mind, at least) it isn't something that happens very often with him (because, again, back to the sex and love together thing).

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

I do like the idea of Fraser as private -- all these little compartments of his past we don't quite see.

[etben.livejournal.com]

reading over comments to this, and:

I think people are right, about Fraser not wanting to have sex with somebody he doesn't care deeply about. I don't particularly think that has to be some sort of 'cosmic chi love thing', though, and I don't even particularly need to have a commitment (although if it's one or both of the Rays, you can bet your ass that I want a commitment, because I am a ho for the happy endings): I can buy a Fraser who sleeps with a friend in that friend's time of need, because that's what's important, to console someone through touch and affection and soft, soft kisses.

But at the same time? that's because Fraser loves his friends. He may not automatically go to a sex place with that thought, but if sex was what was necessary, he'd totally do it. For example, I can totally buy Fraser sleeping with Frannie—but only if he thought that she needed it. In the actual series, Frannie's pretty in control of herself, and pretty happy by and large, and really not needing Fraser, just wanting him, and not wanting the real him, either. If he honestly thought it would be better for her, I kind of think he'd do it. Not that I want to read that, but I'm just saying.

And that's a big part of why I love this show, actually: because there's so much love between Ray and Fraser, and between Ray and Fraser, and, if you've got a writer who's willing to finagle them around, between Ray and Ray. Even when that's not going to the naked place, it's awesome, because it's love, and love is awesome.

So that's Fraser, who's not so interested in partner sex outside of love.

Solo sex, though? A completely different story, if you ask me. Fraser is, after all, a guy who's pretty in tune with his own body, by and large, and who takes pretty good care of it. Also, we've already seen that he hasn't got much in the way of taboos, when it comes to his own actions and his own body—he gets awkward being naked around other people, sure (bounty hunter lady, thatcher), but when it's just him? or (significantly) when it's him and a Ray? he's really remarkably not-awkward.

I totally agree with you, is what I'm saying: Fraser jerks off, and he does it a lot, and he's totally not bothered by it. It's easy, it's safe, fantasy is a healthy and normal part of life, it's completely natural, and oh yeah: it feels good. It doesn't make him feel dirty, or even particularly lonely: it's his sex life, and he'll do what he wants with it.

(and, crap. Now I really want to write the story where they're on the quest, up in the frozen nowhere, and Fraser's jerking off every night, and it freaks Ray the fuck out, because who the hell does that? Who the hell jerks off that much, that regular, without any shame or guilt or even checking to make sure Ray's asleep, for fuck's sake, he could have been watching, he could be some kind of pervert, getting off on Fraser's breathing and the rustle of his sleeping bag and the place where his hand is bumping up, sliding down, over and over again, and then the smell of sex in the air, warm and sweat-salty and Fraser, Fraser, Christ, Fraser.

And at some point, Fraser notices that Ray's up, and says something along the lines of "Oh, I'm sorry, Ray—did I wake you?" Because of course, to him, this is perfectly natural, this is absolutely normal, and while it would certainly be awkward with, for example, Inspector Thatcher in the next sleeping bag, this is Ray, so it's not awkward at all.

Only in Fraser's head, of course, because Ray is many things but he is not yet that much of a freak.

And then, eventually, they have sex. Hi, brain. I'm glad you're mostly recovered from the paper on code-switching! too bad we totally have to go back and write the rest in a bit.)

As far as sexuality goes, I agree that Fraser's bisexual, but that may well be because I think that everyone's bisexual. (A theory which annoys both my (very straight) roommate and my (very queer) future roommate to no end, but who cares?)

And that is my two cents of thinkiness for the moment. Code-switching, watch the fuck out!

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

(and, crap. Now I really want to write the story where they're on the quest, up in the frozen nowhere, and Fraser's jerking off every night, and it freaks Ray the fuck out, because who the hell does that? Who the hell jerks off that much, that regular, without any shame or guilt or even checking to make sure Ray's asleep, for fuck's sake, he could have been watching, he could be some kind of pervert, getting off on Fraser's breathing and the rustle of his sleeping bag and the place where his hand is bumping up, sliding down, over and over again, and then the smell of sex in the air, warm and sweat-salty and Fraser, Fraser, Christ, Fraser.

And at some point, Fraser notices that Ray's up, and says something along the lines of "Oh, I'm sorry, Ray—did I wake you?" Because of course, to him, this is perfectly natural, this is absolutely normal, and while it would certainly be awkward with, for example, Inspector Thatcher in the next sleeping bag, this is Ray, so it's not awkward at all.

Only in Fraser's head, of course, because Ray is many things but he is not yet that much of a freak.

You are a wonderful, wonderful person and I have nothing but love for you.

[etben.livejournal.com]

see, and you say that, but you keep starting discussions like this and giving me plot bunnies and I just don't know what to do.

But I will try to write it while I am in the wildwoods this summer, and have it for you all when I get back. Rah!

[etben.livejournal.com]

P.S. I love you too! I will miss you muchly when I am gone from my computer this summer and have nobody to torment me with plot bunnies and porn!

[taeli.livejournal.com]

*fans self* Oh yes, pleaseplease write this.

[etben.livejournal.com]

Hee! I will work on it, but I don't know if I can write porn while surrounded by small children. I will try! I will make a valiant effort! But it may have to wait until july.

[taeli.livejournal.com]

I understand - real life trumps fic. I'm the patient type so I'm willing to wait. =)

[starfishchick]

(and, crap. Now I really want to write the story where they're on the quest, up in the frozen nowhere, and Fraser's jerking off every night, and it freaks Ray the fuck out, because who the hell does that? Who the hell jerks off that much, that regular, without any shame or guilt or even checking to make sure Ray's asleep, for fuck's sake, he could have been watching, he could be some kind of pervert, getting off on Fraser's breathing and the rustle of his sleeping bag and the place where his hand is bumping up, sliding down, over and over again, and then the smell of sex in the air, warm and sweat-salty and Fraser, Fraser, Christ, Fraser.

And at some point, Fraser notices that Ray's up, and says something along the lines of "Oh, I'm sorry, Ray—did I wake you?" Because of course, to him, this is perfectly natural, this is absolutely normal, and while it would certainly be awkward with, for example, Inspector Thatcher in the next sleeping bag, this is Ray, so it's not awkward at all.

Only in Fraser's head, of course, because Ray is many things but he is not yet that much of a freak.

And then, eventually, they have sex.

Oh, man, I would so read this. (And now I am going to be thinking about it ALL NIGHT.)

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

I'd always read Fraser/RayV as with the possibility of more. I read RayV as really straight with the exception of Fraser. However, I think Fraser is so excited just to have a BFF that he doesn't want to damage it by making it more. Pre-Victoria, I think Fraser has a strong belief in true and pure love, but post-Victoria not so much. I think RayK comes along at the perfect time when Fraser's mostly healed from Victoria and already has stable friendships so taking a chance with RayK won't ruin his life. I always felt that Fraser knew RayV would come back no matter what.

[joandarck.livejournal.com]

I have a total failure to be together enough to respond to this post, which is very interesting and making me have all sorts of ideas, but I'm just too tired and stupid to say any of them. But thank you posting it?

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Hee. My pleasure!