I should know much more about Catholicism than I do

[schmerica]

Dear people who have more religious knowledge than me,

Okay, so, Ray Vecchio has a living ex-wife. I am assuming that for as long as this is true, any relationship he has with another woman (or even, like, getting remarried outside the church) a) counts as adultery and b) so in that case -- comitting an ongoing sin you don't intend to stop -- he would not be able to confess and take communion? Or am I totally and completely off base here? Because, like I said, I would very much appreciate clarification from anyone less ignorant than I am.

Comments

[pocketmouse]

If you don't ever have children, sometimes you can get the marriage annulled, and it's fine with the church, since half the point of marriage (according to the Roman Catholic Church) is to 'increase and multiply' so if you can't have kids (or just don't) then sometimes you can get the marriage canceled and 'remarry so you can have kids' or somesuch. At least, that's what I recall from religion classes, but it's not always that well looked on. But it's possible.

[ladysorka]

Even if you do have children, you can get a formal annulment from the church - it requires letters from friends basically going "Oh, yeah, they're a good Catholic person, etc", which allows them to get remarried.

A friend of my father's did this in order to get remarried, and both he and his new wife (who was also Catholic and went through the same process) had two children from previous marriages that ended in divorce.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[epj.livejournal.com]

Well...it depends. If he's simply divorced and hasn't obtained an annulment, both "a" and "b" are correct. If he *has* obtained an annulment, however, he'd be fine. Are there any clues to lead you either way? Do you know what an annulment is, or have I jumped into Catholic jargon? :)

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

*grins* I do know what an annulment is, don't worry.

[cereta.livejournal.com]

Technically, yes.

Now, ask me how many Catholics actually observe the restriction on communion, and how many priests enforce it. Vecchio, from my brief exposure to the show, might face pressure from his mother on that front, but if he's about my age, he's unlikely to see the conflict.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

This makes much sense! Thanks!

[sage]

You're always allowed to confess, no matter what. But confession DOES NOT mean the priest has to offer forgiveness if you have no plans of stopping the sin. If he doesn't forgive you, you're not supposed to receive communion, but enforcement of that wouldn't be strict in a parish of thousands.

I tend to think Angie would've demanded an annulment so there wouldn't be an issue with her remarrying and raising kids in the church if she wanted to, but I don't remember if the show says anything to that effect.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

I am pretty sure they never say anything more specific than "ex-wife", ever.

Thanks!

[dine.livejournal.com]

having a marriage annulled can be a lengthy process, but definitely doable - my sister did (even though there was a child), because she wanted to be able to marry again in the church. her ex- didn't care as much either way, so he didn't contest it. he's now divorcing wife #2, and seeing candidate #3.

there's tons of paperwork that gets bounced up the ladder to the Vatican, and there's no guarantee it will be granted, but depending on the circumstances, and assuming your locals vouch for you, it can be done.

frankly, my view of Vecchio is that he might not be that invested personally, but I bet his mother would be.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Interesting - thanks!

[sansets]

Here's the offical Baltimore Catechism on this one. That is the party line. However, the way it was always explained to me in 12 years of Catholic schooling, because it is considered a sacrament, if the people entering into the union are not "sufficently mature and commited" at the time of the marriage, then the marriage isn't actually a true sacrament, and thus can be annuled whenever. (And after annulement, they are free to do whatever the hell they want! *g*)

(And ditto to what cereta said, because what I gave you is probably more technical than what you were looking for! *g*)

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

*grins* Thank you very much!

[zeenell]

well, I know the church i attend now doesn't really seem to care (except, um, Jesuits are some of the most liberal priests around, so take that as you will).

In fact, the only time I've heard a priest say anything negitive about divorce is because this one couple where using their children as tools to hurt each other.

*shrugs*

it pretty much seems to be - go to confession (which is suggested you do before you receive communion) and then go to mass. Nowadays, the priests will generally forgive you your sins, and than suggest you talk to someone, etc... because most divorce's hurt you, etc...

On the other hand, sex before marriage is generally considered wrong no matter what, but you won't be harshly punished most times. Heck, i know a priest who managed to work it out so a couple could get married in the church even though they had 2 kids, the woman had a very doubtful baptisim, never had the classes, and the husband stopped going before to church before he was confirmed. *shrugs* Lot of things in that that in older times would have meant no marriage in the church. Times are a-changing *g*

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[grlnamedlucifer.livejournal.com]

*dittos sageness on the communion part*

Well, my dad refused to pay to get his first marriage annulled so he and my mom were told a) they weren't allowed to get married in a catholic church and b) my brother and I are considered bastards because he's techically commiting adultery with my mother, even though they're married. He was allowed to get an annulment even though he already had two kids, but if he had *they* would be considered bastards because that marriage officially never existed. Don't know if that helps or not. :)

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

It's interesting, at least! Thanks!

[celli]

It depends on the priest you go to, in a lot of cases...you're always allowed to confess, and quite often Communion is acceptable as well - there's a whole theory with it, I have a book somewhere. *waves vaguely*

It's definitely possible that a priest would stare him down in the Communion line and refuse him the sacrament, though, if that's the way you want to write it.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Hmm, interesting -- thanks!

[dewey3067.livejournal.com]

Do we know if Angie is Catholic? If not, then getting it annulled would be no problem.

Under the TMI category: My mother told me on my wedding day "Well, if it doesn't work out you can always get it annulled since he's not Catholic."

She also didn't tell me that "wedding mass" meant communion was given. I thought any Catholic service was a "mass" - yeah, I don't know what I was doing during all those years of Catholic school. The priest had agreed not to have communion at the wedding (see above about future hubby not being Catholic) which my mother knew when she and I ordered the invitations. When she later said we had to have communion because the invitations said "mass," I told her she was on her own explaining to people why the invitations were printed "wrong."

BTW - just had our 24th anniversary (and I am talking to my mother again, finally)

[dewey3067.livejournal.com]

Oh, also, just remembered another family tale that may be of interest.

My aunt was marrying for the first time. Her future husband was divorced and had applied for annulment based on the fact that his first wife left him for a woman. (The church will grant annulment for "such things" even after children.)

They decided to have a civil ceremony wedding so they could live together with the four kids and not have people talking, then repeat it with a Catholic one when the annulment finally came through.

Anyway, the morning of the civil wedding we had a special family mass together - just the family. The priest, who had been counseling them through this minefield of Church rules, refused the prospective bridgroom communion since his annulment wasn't finalized. Which the poor guy didn't realize till he was actually standing up at the alter.