In conclusion, I like slash.

[schmerica]

(This entry is mostly about boyslash, and not so much femslash or het, which I've read less and not noticed the issues as much.)

A conversation over in kalpurna's journal about power dynamics and ass-fucking here -- while pretty interesting on its own! -- has sent my thoughts on a vaguely related tangent. If you've talked to me on AIM when I've been in a babbling about fanfiction mood, you might have heard me talk about the sort of fetishization of equality that seems to inform a lot of people's experience with slash.

(Which can be relatively subtle, and as just a sort of "fixing" of what's perceived as inequalities in canon, but can also in some cases kind of freak me out when it goes to the point of trying to make up pretty much every single difference between the people to somehow make an exactly level playing field, with neither better or higher or greater than the other, and which often goes beyond anything about the actual characters.)

So. In Kalpurna's entry, she mentions that the whole conception of top and bottom as really fixed positions written into everything about the relationship can often be with really disturbing overtones. Which I think a lot of us would totally agree with! Sexual position does not equal the power dynamics in a relationship; the person being penetrated isn't necessarily inferior or submissive. (Like, hi, see the vast majority of heterosexual relationships; in couples that don't do pegging, the woman might also be the one getting penetrated, but that doesn't define the relationship as the woman being powerless and the man being totally in charge of everything.)

Sex is part of character, like anything else. But it doesn't define *everything* in someone's life, and it's not a direct correlation with other things.

So, okay. On the one hand, it seems like a lot of boyslash fandom reacts to that false top/bottom fixed dichotomy in the same way, which is ... trading off. It gets to the point where the reader expects and is really disappointed in a story if they don't get both the boys pitching and both catching (and to a certain degree, both receiving and giving oral sex, but not as much). I've seen on several occasions people name one of the awesome things about their fandoms that the boys do always switch off, because they're just so equal and awesome that way.

And I totally get where that drive comes from, but I guess what confuses me is why the other option in responding to the false generalizations is so much less common -- almost taboo, it seems sometimes. Because if we mostly agree that being the receiving partner in anal sex doesn't make you the "woman" or the "sub" or the weaker person, then doesn't it follow that it's still true even if you always prefer to be the receiving partner? It's totally possible to write a relationship where one guy is always pitching and one is always catching without that becoming the false power issues Kalpurna talks about in her entry. (I've read a few really good stories that just feature a guy who doesn't like to top -- mosca's ice skating RPS comes to mind.) But sometimes it seems like a kind of unspoken rule that the "sharing" I mentioned above has to occur.

I don't know; in some ways I think the latter type of relationship might be more subversive in some ways than the taking-turns-type model. If taking turns is a necessity in the relationship to achieve equality and comfort, then we're still in an environment where sex does define the power, and the equality is only coming from both guys taking the inferior position. (Also, het girls? You're screwed forever by biology. Sucks to be you!)

But if the power dynamics of a relationship can still be maintained through a whole continuum of sex -- everywhere from the taking-turns all the way to guy-who-likes-to-fuck-always/guy-who-always-likes-to-be-fucked -- than that seems to me to be saying much more of a "fuck no" to the entire patriarchal concept of worthless-submissive-inferior-powerless-penetrated-object and powerful-virile-superior-dominant-penetrator-subject.

(...Of course, obviously all of this is complicated by the fact that our characters don't necessarily share any like my/your/our concepts of sexual politics, especially when from a different age, generation or political stance. They're ornery that way.)

So, honestly, if Ray Kowalski spend 25 years fucking Stella and she still totally wore the pants in their relationship, who's to say Fraser couldn't do the same thing without ever doing the penetrating?

Hi, I just wrote yet another essay about reading about boys having sex for our entertainment. You would think I was some sort of geek or something.

Comments

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I never really think about pitching and catching, but I always like the stories when at least one of the guys expresses some sort of preference -- one of the guys is like, "Yeah, actually I don't like having things shoved up my ass," or one of them say, "I don't feel like I'm actually having sex unless something is being shoved up my ass, so I should bottom all the time".

Like, the tradeoff model is invisible, but the stories where one or both has opinions about sexual positions and strong preferences always feels more real.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think that's especially true in fandoms or stories where you can assume the guys involved are relatively sexually experienced. Although I suppose even in the other case, that's still something that can develop over the story.

[mosca.livejournal.com]

Hey, awesome post that I think is right on in every way, and I'm not just saying that because you namechecked me. :) I'm used to the old-school fandom trope where the same guy is always always on the bottom and his asshole is pretty much a mangina, but now that you point it out, fandom has shifted/is shifting to the equally disastrous "they are completely equal in all things" cliche.

Since you brought up "Hearts Beat Time Out" (which is the only one of my skating fics that makes a point of establishing a character as a full-time bottom), I really was trying to draw attention to how often Johnny was being penetrated but totally in control of the sex act. Like, "Here's the position I want you to be in when you fuck me, and here's how I want you to do it." Topping from the bottom.

In femslash, a lot of writers (fail to) deal with the penetration = domination fallacy by avoiding images of penetration altogether. I've actually gotten nastygrams about f/f stories that employed strap-ons or sex toys. And there's a lot less digital penetration in fic than, well, in life, and what there is often downplays the penetrative aspects, as hard as that is to imagine in a scene where one woman has most of her hand inside another's vagina. Take the fear of inequality that we see in m/m fic, multiply it by fifty, and that's the fear of inequality that I see in femslash.

[callmesandy.livejournal.com]

I was reading along about power issues and I was thinking, "what about figure skaters ..." and then pearl_o mentioned it right there and I was like, hahahahaha.

So, um, yay! all around for smart people I know.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Take the fear of inequality that we see in m/m fic, multiply it by fifty, and that's the fear of inequality that I see in femslash.

Oh, that's totally fascinating; I hadn't realized that was the case, but it does make a lot of sense.

Since you brought up "Hearts Beat Time Out" (which is the only one of my skating fics that makes a point of establishing a character as a full-time bottom), I really was trying to draw attention to how often Johnny was being penetrated but totally in control of the sex act. Like, "Here's the position I want you to be in when you fuck me, and here's how I want you to do it." Topping from the bottom.

*nods* And I definitely think that was effective in that story. And on another tangent, I wonder if one of the things I find so interesting about reading your skating RPS is that you really do get to work in a story where the lead is, canonically/in-real-footage, very much on the fey and fabulous side. So you're playing with a whole different idea of masculinity than the "manly man!!!" straight boys media fandom slash I'm used to, where the "feminization" curse can be equally applied to either feyness *or* really bizarre submissive characterization.

[mosca.livejournal.com]

Yeah, several of my protagonists fall on the fey side, and you can't really be a figure skater and project a manly image -- it's a whole different spectrum of masculinity, ranging from totally androgynous to sensitively masculine artist. But the other side of the coin is, in other respects, they're probably more masculine than most of the men being written about in other fandoms: they're athletes with ripped, muscular bodies, and they're incredibly competitive and aggressive.

[somewhatdeluded.livejournal.com]

It's interesting that you mention the issue of failing to deal with penetration in femmeslash, because that bugs me, too--as does the flip side, namely, writing m/m slash where every sexual encounter, every time, must end with someone with his cock up the other guy's ass. Every now and again I'll come across a sex scene where two guys are 69ing and I'll be all, "All riiiiiight" and then they'll, like, stop, and switch so that one of them can fuck the other. Which is like, okay, well, hey! I like buttsex! But especially if the same thing happens multiple times in one fic, it gets kind of perplexing. Like, what? Where the heck did that author find two guys who don't want to come from oral?

From my POV, it isn't like there's a line of sexually satisfying acts, with penetration all the way down at the "FUN!" end. Sometimes, two guys can 69 and come in each other's mouths and then hey! Good times! Sometimes, that's a fun date night! Similarly, sure, two girls can 69 each other until they're blue in the face, but sometimes maybe they like some fisting, too! There are all kinds of fun ways to get off, no matter the gender configuration of the participants. Sex isn't hockey. Holes are not goals.

The thing that you mention with femmeslash bugs me with het, too, because damn it all, lots of people, of both genders, really like being penetrated. And so hey! Let that chick over there stick two fingers up her boy's butt! Let these two chicks over here do it with dildos! Let freedom ring!

And I'm not just saying that because I'm writing het pegging fic in another window right now. *whistles innocently*

[mosca.livejournal.com]

Seriously. There's an enormous spectrum to sex, but we don't see most of it represented in fic. Handjobs? Rimming? Phone sex? Anal penetration of women? Hi. And who says they both have to get off at once? Also, there are some aspects of technique that are very common in my experience but seldom depicted in slash: I can think of, like, two stories in which someone gives a blow job while fingering the guy's ass, and no equivalent cunnilingus scenes.

And m/f pegging is, of course, awesome.

[ex_mrs260625]

Every now and again I'll come across a sex scene where two guys are 69ing and I'll be all, "All riiiiiight" and then they'll, like, stop, and switch so that one of them can fuck the other.

I hate that. Seriously. Oral is not just something people do on the way to "real" sex. It is glorious and fun and satisfying in its own right.

Unless the guy has been eating asparagus. Then 50% of partners would probably not want him to come from oral. Because even if you spit, eww.

[wemblee.livejournal.com]

Sex isn't hockey. Holes are not goals. [...] And so hey! Let that chick over there stick two fingers up her boy's butt! Let these two chicks over here do it with dildos! Let freedom ring!

I... Please marry me. Or put those sentences on bumper stickers. Heee.

[carla-scribbles.livejournal.com]

Take the fear of inequality that we see in m/m fic, multiply it by fifty, and that's the fear of inequality that I see in femslash.

Huh. Do you think so? I don't notice that so much -- of course, I've been reading mostly BSG femslash, where we LOVE our frakked-up power dynamics and our top!Roslin, so my sample set is probably incredibly biased.

[mosca.livejournal.com]

From what I know of BSG fandom, that's absolutely true. But from what I've seen -- in my own fandoms and in things like femslash porn battles and the femslash_today queue, BSG is the exception rather than the rule.

[carla-scribbles.livejournal.com]

Ahhh, yes -- you mean the Willow/Tara Strikes Back thing, where all girl-on-girl action MUST be soft and idealized and nice, because after all we're so much more sensitive than those icky boys?

Yeah. No. Hate that. It's almost never right for the characters, and it's about as erotic as a tour of the home furnishing section at Bed, Bath, and Beyond. No, I totally see your point there.

*sighhhhhh* And once again, despite the batshit Kara/Lee shippers, I am reminded of why I LOVE MY SHOW.

[hobbledehoy.livejournal.com]

auggh. i love willow/tara, but i hate willow and tara slash. for that reason.

poor girls. things must get so lonely in their imaginary bedrooms. the one fic i wrote was of tara doing drag and fucking willow, and hot damn did i get flaaaaamed.

[carla-scribbles.livejournal.com]

Dude. Where is this fic? I think I have to read it.

[hobbledehoy.livejournal.com]

i think it's somewhere in the ether, thank goodness. i was little. bad writing, but good sex. :D

[somewhatdeluded.livejournal.com]

Oh, man. This rocks. You rock. YOU OWN THE INTERNETS. You just said everything I have thought while twitching and clicking the back button halfway through a sex scene, ever, only way more coherently than I will ever manage.

The other thing about the power dynamic issue is that making sex be consciously about power dynamics, for the characters, on an intellectual level, just doesn't make sense. I don't really care whether it's we-must-trade-topping-and-bottoming-because-we-are-equals or I-am-in-charge-so-I-am-always-going-to-be-pitching; that's just not how it works. Most people don't really think about sex that they are having in that way. They may be aware of those issues, and those issues may inform their sexual choices, but most of the time, when one is having sex, the thought process is more along the lines of "HOT. WANT. NOW."

So yes! By all means! Have Ray want to fuck Fraser up the ass because he wants to take some measure of control! The author can know that that's what's going on, but it's way more believable for Ray, the character, to be thinking "Fraser just looks so goddamned hot flat on his face and moaning while I pin him to the bed." Not, "I'm going to fuck Fraser so that I can take control." HORNY PEOPLE ARE NOT THAT RATIONAL.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Heeeeee. Although, you know, some of our characters do tend to be superhuman freaks would overthink each and every thing in their lives if possible.

[somewhatdeluded.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, okay, yes, I take it back. CONSTABLE BENTON FRASER R.C.M.P. would totally be thinking, "Three days ago, Ray was right about something, and ever since he's been smirking in a self-satisfied way that I find both irritating and strangely arousing. I think I'm going to penetrate him anally to show him exactly who wears the jodhpurs in theis relationship. Please, Ray, put your hands on the back of the sofa, and assume the position."

Meanwhile Ray is going, "Mmm. Mountie cock."

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

he's been smirking in a self-satisfied way that I find both irritating and strangely arousing.

Ahahahahahaha. That is F/K in a NUTSHELL.

[joandarck.livejournal.com]

I loved this fic so much!

Oh, wait, that wasn't a story with a word count of sixty? Oops.

[somewhatdeluded.livejournal.com]

LOL! <3

[omphale]

I think I'm going to penetrate him anally to show him exactly who wears the jodhpurs in theis relationship.

DYING of laughter, here. This is the best example of a story that must be written EVER. Could Ray actually say, "Mmm. Mountie cock," out loud? Please?

*overuses capitals when tired*

[somewhatdeluded.livejournal.com]

Your wish is my command (http://madsciencechick.livejournal.com/135917.html)!

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

I think the expectation of both guys bottoming at some point is just about equality but also about vulnerability, i.e., I think there may be a cultural conception that definitely has informed slash that bottoming is an emotionally vulnerable position, which thus allow it to shorthand as commitment and love. In other words, I read the leading up to the bottoming scene trajectory as a physical conceit for the emotional intimacy that develops over the course of the story.

Which might be why there are so much fewer bottom on top stories (which would make some sense for first times and I actually find quite hot :)...the bottoming functions as a loss of control and to be willing to do that seems to symbolize love/intimacy.

[As for the underlying bottoming=vulnerability and its consequences for het girls *g*: since most of our characters and most of us do exist within a sexist and heteronormative environment, I think that the stories possibly reflect rather than prescribe???]

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

I think there may be a cultural conception that definitely has informed slash that bottoming is an emotionally vulnerable position, which thus allow it to shorthand as commitment and love.

Hmm, I think you definitely have a really good point here -- that's definitely something that seems to be in play for all these stories. I guess I just don't find it particularly interesting as a conceit *myself*, so it's not immediately obvious to me? Hmmm.

[As for the underlying bottoming=vulnerability and its consequences for het girls *g*: since most of our characters and most of us do exist within a sexist and heteronormative environment, I think that the stories possibly reflect rather than prescribe???]

Sigh. Yes, I'm sure it's a reflection, but ... come on, people! Fuck the man! Own your sexuality!

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

well...i've thought quite a bit about the way physicality stands in for psychology in slash...it's actually fascinating to look at the way physical connectedness metaphorically presents emotional connectedness (eh...I talk at length about it here (http://cathexys.livejournal.com/183258.html), but the central argument is how physicality functions in a lot of stories, not just in terms of sex but as partners relying on the other's physical support etc.)

as for owning our sexuality :D i think we're fighting two fights, though...our own *and* theirs...i.e., even if i don't think bottoming represents vulnerability...will John??? If he's written as all gay and sex and bottom positive, then yeah, no vulnerability there...but he might also be the quick hand and blowjobs off base, so intimacy itself might be the bigger issue?

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

i think we're fighting two fights, though...our own *and* theirs...

Right, absolutely. I think figuring out the character's approach to their sexuality is really crucial to figuring how to write them, and like I said in the entry, they're probably not the same as ours. So there are definitely contexts where all these assumptions or shortcuts DO work, and make sense for the stories and the characters, and are totally effective. So, yeah, bottoming in a story for the first time can be an excellent signifier of the emotional intimacy. But of course, it's not the only option for signifier, either; there are so many ways to get there, whether physical (kissing, bed vs other locations, staying the night, shy-or-body-conscious-partner allowing the other to look, whatever) or, of course, the more emotionally obvious bits that everyone quotes as their favorite parts of the story. Heh.

...I guess I'm saying, I agree with you on all your points, but vulnerability and intimacy are really interesting and complex, and tying it too tightly to bottoming (not in an individual story, necessarily, but across fandom) makes it less effective.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

yesyesyes!!! I don't think i was ever disagreeing as much as trying to further analyze just what might have created such a trope and its particular appeal.

And you're totally right: the power of a scene is totally increased when it doesn't happen all the time. So, a variety of intimacy 'proofs' (esp. in sync with the character's idiosyncracies) would make the most sense...

[lorem_ipsum]

Just to add to the ideas about what might have created the trope--

I think there's also an element of, "I [the writer] would like to peg or be fucked by both Fraser and Ray, but I can't, so I'll make them do each other."

[long pause]

Um. In conclusion, Ray Kowalski.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

Yes! Constance Penley suggested 15 years ago that one of the advantages of slash is that (at least het and bi women) can be and have both guys...

[aukestrel.livejournal.com]

I think you're right about shorthand thing and here's why: I've had betas or would-be betas tell friends of mine and me that "the story can't end that way" or "you can't end it here" or even "you can't start with fucking!" because the fucking - anal penetration, IOW - should be (according to them) the climax of the story.

It seems to be a very rigid "formula" on how to write slash! And it's funny that if you asked them to define how they see slash, I bet you they'd tell you it was subversive. They don't realise that how you construct a story, or whether two guys have sex, really means more than how (or when) two guys have sex.

I just... wow. It sort of boggles my mind that the vast underground (emphasis on the "underground") slashy conspiracy is inhabited by so many rigid thinking individuals. *g*

[carla-scribbles.livejournal.com]

*laughs*

See, this is why I may never actually write slash. Once I started having to decide the significance of whose bits go where how often, I would literally get even less work done than usual.

Er, that sounds dismissive. I don't mean it to be. This is interesting, and I'm just not capable of rational thought at the moment.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

*grins* It's okay, I understand.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

This is interesting. And I was going to say more, but the baby hollered. So... *wanders off thinking*

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Thinking is good! *encourages*

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

I am a freak, 'cos I totally do NOT read or write slash to level the playing field. I like fanfiction 'cos it's about relationships I find interesting going sexual, plumbing immaterial. Yeah, compulsive switching off kind of rings unrealistic sometimes. I do like it if characters at least express a preference (whether that's "bottom" or "yes, please!" or "I don't like oral sex"*).

So anyway, yeah, I agree.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

I am a freak, 'cos I totally do NOT read or write slash to level the playing field.

I am pretty much right there with you! I kind of understand where they're coming from, since it's a motive that comes up over and over when people reflect on why they write slash, but it's never been something I focus on. (But I find het often quite interesting, too, like you, so.)

[hobbledehoy.livejournal.com]

you know... i just can't understand not doing the most you can with the bodies you have.

and hell, i can still be a sub if i'm fucking cubbie someone.

sorry that my sex life snuck in there. but, but, i don't know. i think that fandom's expectations of sex/uality can be pretty wham bam thankyouma'am limited.

(i think fraser *could*, but i don't know if he would *want to*)

[hobbledehoy.livejournal.com]

and oh shit, i hate dan savage.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Heh, I don't know if he'd want to, either. But you're right: sometimes fandom is surprisingly limiting in its expressions of sex, and it's weird.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

Interesting discussion. I don't really have much to add to it, except for this:

An rpg character of mine once replied, "Damn straight I like it on my back. Watching your face. Moving under you like I was born to be there. Your cock in me as deep as it'll go, making me tremble and moan until I can't think or talk, until my body explodes from the way you ride me. Hell yeah, I like it on my back. On my knees. On the floor, on the bed, in a car, I don't give a fuck. As long as you're inside of me," when his partner said, Well you do seem to like it on your back there darlin', so who am I to disappoint?


hmmmmmm.

[ex_mrs260625]

I mentioned in kalpurna's entry that exclusivity is definitely not the norm among queer guys, at least the ones I know, but neither is it a *thing*. They get asked why, but they're not viewed as strange for having a preference strong enough to never want to switch.

The kind of scorekeeping that sometimes happens in slash... that would, I suspect, be viewed as seriously weird by most queer guys. Much more bound up in "getting fucked means you're inferior" issues than exclusive topping probably would be.

[keerawa.livejournal.com]

Now, to me, "top" and "bottom" have very specific D/S meanings. Its nothing to do with who's body parts are in who's orifices.

Someone who "tops from the bottom" is a rude and pushy sub.

I wonder if it's my age, the location I grew up in, or my sexual sub-community? I am really unable to fathom sexual position as indicating power, control, inferiority, masculinity, etc. Unless you're one of those fucked-in-the-head-but-never-in-the-ass "straight" boys who like getting blow jobs from other guys.

Anyway, I read posters complaining about the lack of variety in sexual acts in fanfiction. All I can say is, come visit due South. Right now the stop_drop_porn community is working their way through a big long kink checklist just to be sure nothing's been left out. I kid you not.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I think to me "one person always tops" isn't really a problem when it happens in a story. It's more an issue when it's a cross fandom thing. When fandom somehow decides that this one guy is so obviously top and this other guy is so obviously bottom and guy one tops in every single story and guy two bottoms in every single story.

Yes, you can still have a variety of power motivations even if guy one always tops and guy two always bottoms. But to me it still feels like it reduces the overall number of possible variations.