cirsumvrent, as gob says

[schmerica]

I have two topics for discussion today, people.

FIRST. Okay, so what is your guys's opinion on Diefenbaker's diet in Chicago? Primarily kibble, you think? I'm not sure Fraser in either the apartment or consulate has the resources for a raw food diet. We also see Dief eating a lot of people food (which, even leaving the donuts and pizza aside for a moment, Fraser, why are you giving your wolf spaghetti? Honestly). He seems pretty healthy no matter what, though. Presumably there's a stricter regiment when Diefenbaker is in working mode as a sled dog, as well.

SECOND. Fraser is basically respectful of authority -- but the law trumps authority -- and justice trumps the law. This last part is SO INTERESTING to me, you guys, because throughout the series we get, like, dozens of examples of Fraser telling other people that the only way to get to justice is through the law -- but when it comes down to it, the places where they don't meet up is still a major struggle for Fraser. Like, I don't think he's a hypocrite at all, but there are definitely times when in order to do the right thing, he is circumventing the law.

Examples off the top of my head:

+ Refusing to take the baby to the authorities in Mountie, Cop and Baby
+ Not turning in Kowalski in Asylum or Vecchio in Dead Man Running
+ Sitting in the Riv while Vecchio is in the gym with Zuko in the Deal
+ I haven't seen the episode in a while, so I don't remember exact details, but he's definitely torn in some way when it comes to Mask

There are more, I'm sure. And that's not even counting the times when he is tempted to the edge and you see how he's restraining the "wild sort of justice" within himself, just like he tells RayK in Eclipse. With Gerrard, with the gun in the pilot and the boot in the chest and throwing knives in Bird in the Hand; with Muldoon in Call of the Wild.

And of course, one of the questions that comes up is the same question that comes up with pretty much any question of Fraser characterization, which is: how does Victoria fit into all of this? Picking the law above love, and love above the law, and it goes wrong every time. How does justice fit in there at all?

Oh, FRASER. You have such deeply held beliefs. That is reason number 874 why I love you. <3

Comments

[shoemaster.livejournal.com]

Kibble for sure, but Fraser totally has some cans of wet food on hand for when Dief does something good like save Ray's life. He normally objects to such things, but in this case, he encourages positive re-enforcement.

Also? I was SO confused when I read 'Gerrard'. "That's not how you spell it...

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

...Honey. Were you trying to read it as Gerald Way?

(I wonder what Fraser would have against bandom, anyway. Poor emo boys, getting on his bad side!)

[shoemaster.livejournal.com]

If by Gerald, you mean Gerard, yes, yes I was. It's not like I'm obsessed or anything. REALLY.

(and he totally doesn't understand the 'saves lives' thing. He's never seen those boys in eyeliner jump off of a building or pick up their partner by the scruff of the neck to get them out of the way of a moving vehicle. He does however, admire Mr. Bryar's dedication to his art while on fire)

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

You are SO PRETTY. <3<3<3

I don't think Fraser expects most people to achieve those heights of doing stuff! Just him. And his friends.

[shoemaster.livejournal.com]

I KNOW.

This is true, but I can't really think of any reason he WOULDN'T like Gerard. Because a dorky, gay boy like him? What's NOT to love? (he's so pretty!) Also, Gerard would LOVE Dief. (See discussion re:Wolf t-shirts)

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

I love how much you are assuming I have any tiny bit of MCR knowledge whatsoever.

I think Fraser is very respectful of artists in general. RayK, on the other hand, is much more dismissive.

[shoemaster.livejournal.com]

PEARL you can't just say things like that. I want to pimp you in! Though I had kind of guessed, based on the Gerald thing. I totally did the same thing. Back in the day two weeks ago. Pretty much? I think I love them more than FOB even if the fic is kind of terrible. So I'm trying to write some.

Yeah, I don't think Ray would get the weemo thing AT ALL. (It's a bunch of whiny midgets!)

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Yay writing fic!

I am very hard to pimp into fandoms, is the thing, because whether or not I fall is completely and utterly random and unpredictable. I looooose.

Hee, etben and I have had long conversations about how Ray would get along with Pete Wentz!.

[shoemaster.livejournal.com]

Totally self indulgent fic, too! \o/

I completely understand. Fannish loves are just very personal <3

I knoooooow. I think I may have sparked it saying "YOU KNOW WHAT NEEDS TO BE CROSSED OVER?" and then she ran with it over to you. (The problem is, we have a lot of conversations that start "You know what I want to read?")

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

(The problem is, we have a lot of conversations that start "You know what I want to read?")

You are NOT ALONE in this! *daydreams about how I now want kidfic dealing with Fraser's justice-over-law thinger*

[shoemaster.livejournal.com]

kidfic dealing with Fraser's justice-over-law thinger

Ooooh. Tell me more!

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

I don't more! I just want someone ELSE to tell me what Fraser would do to protect his and Ray's BABY OMG.

[shoemaster.livejournal.com]

Are there mean people who don't think the baby belongs with them? *kicks them in the head* Or are there bad guys who want to HURT Ray and Fraser by doing something nefarious with the baby?

Or, oh man, if when she (I <3 them with a little girl, no lie) is a teenager and some guy tries to go too far....I'd move to fucking Tierra Del Fuego if I were him.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

*sniffsniff* BAD PEOPLE! Using the means of the LAW, Fraser's one true thing, so try and take away their BABY! Waaaaah!

Dief would totally eat them.

[shoemaster.livejournal.com]

GOD. And like, one of Fraser's subordinates (or maybe his supervisor) would come and be all "Sir, I've been ordered to place her into the custody of [whoever] for the duration of..." And Fraser would just...oh man.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

*lip wobble* OH FRASER. It would be like Dief in the Wild Bunch! Only Fraser wouldn't let it happen this time, because he's learned. What would he dooooo?

[shoemaster.livejournal.com]

*flail* I DON'T KNOW.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

...Maybe etben will tell us?

*sniffle*

[shoemaster.livejournal.com]

Yes! [Bad username or site: etbeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeennnnnn @ livejournal.com], the Maple Fist sez "TELL US WHAT HAPPENS".

[starfishchick]

I love your DS rambling.

(And the episode with the eggs? When Dief is all grumbly 'cause Fraser is making him go running? HEE.)

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

THAT IS MY FAVORITE FRASER-DIEF MOMENT EVER! When Fraser is threatening to put him in a box and get shipped to the Yukon? Heart.

[starfishchick]

The "Aww, Diefenbaker" just destroys me. (Because you know Fraser is disappointed in himSELF, too.)

[ainsley.livejournal.com]

I wonder how different Fraser is in Canada, because the self-loathing he carries with him in Chicago has to leave a large psychic footprint. You don't feel that kind of disappointment in yourself without being very different from the you without that burden.

/projection

I had to look it up!

[starfishchick]

"Aw, Diefenbaker. Do I have to remind you that you are a carnivore, that you are genetically predisposed to hunt, or have you forgotten that?"

[ainsley.livejournal.com]

Knowing Fraser, I can't see him allowing Dief to subsist solely on kibble and doughnuts. He'll, at worst, give him kibble only when unable to provide anything else. I can't see Fraser caring for kibble in idea or execution, because of the damage it does to the environment and the deaf half-wolf.

IMO, there's a place in all of us, deeply hidden, that is immune to external forces and operates on pure instinct, even when that instinct goes against everything we stand for. It's INSTINCT, it doesn't have to make sense. I think Victoria is Fraser's instinctual place. With her, he struggles between the nurtured Fraser and the natural Fraser.

His beliefs have to be at least in the top ten reasons I love him; more likely, they're in the top five.

(why do I have to write this paper? talking Fraser on friendsfriends is so much more FTW!)

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, kibble-for-the-wolf as metaphor for the inappropriateness that is Fraser and Dief in Chicago! This requires more thought.

Your entire second paragraph makes me go "Oh, Fraser!" and clutch my chest, just so you know.

[ainsley.livejournal.com]

You're right--it does. It fits well with the idea of Dief as Fraser's doppelganger, what with the junk food love.

Fraser makes me clutch my chest frequently. Unless my hands are unavailable for chest-clutching, of course. In which case my heart is still very engaged with him.

(Is it wrong that I've looked into teaching jobs in the Northwest Territories?)

[phineasjones.livejournal.com]

what gets me on #2 is victoria's secret. as you say, love and the law, etc. he thinks he did the wrong thing because he was in love with her. thus... i can only reason that fraser thinks love somehow trumps all of the above - authority, law, even justice. which baffles me. and it only really comes up in vs. well, and those eps you mentioned where it could also be seen as justice. it throws my concept of fraser's character but at the same time, makes it so much more human and complex and lovable.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Oooh, that's really interesting! I wonder where the line is, then, in Fraser's mind, where it comes to that. Because, again, I think about the Wild Bunch, where he *is* going to let Dief get executed -- but there he also does believe that Dief has gone wild, to some degree. Do you think third or fourth season Fraser would make the same choices there?

[phineasjones.livejournal.com]

ooh. that's a good question. and a hard one. it's almost the same question as 'is he glad he didn't go with her in the end?' which i also think is hard. like, in my personal story, yes, he's glad he didn't go bc then he wouldn't have met the true love of his life: ray k. however, that's not necessarily the only way to see the situation. :)

wow, thinking about wild bunch in this context is odd, but scary. it's a reminder to me that we take the arc of the characters more seriously than the writers probably did. maybe.

but, back to the question. s3/4 fraser seems different in a lot of ways. in some sense, he's harder than he had come to be in s2. like, in reaction to the new ray, he stiffens up (ahaha, i'm so funny) and retreats into old behaviors. he also seems a little bit jaded - emotionally and otherwise. which one could relate to having lived through the victoria stuff, i suppose. i guess, no, i don't think he would make the same choices. s3/4 fraser seems to have taken a step toward the infallible. not that he really is, just... he's lost a little of that edge of vulnerability that made vs so amazing.

my goodness, i am rambly tonight.

[ainsley.livejournal.com]

But does he think that love trumps all? He thinks he's wrong in loving her, but does it anyway, which suggests to me that loving her goes beyond his ability to think (which in turn undermines his understanding of who he is).

[phineasjones.livejournal.com]

but at first, before he finds out what she's up to this time around, he thinks he did the wrong thing in turning her in last time. because he loved her. he goes to confession and tells this to a priest, he's so sure it was the wrong thing to do. when his father tells him it was the right thing to do, that it was his duty, he disagrees. because she's the only woman he ever loved.

[ainsley.livejournal.com]

Which begs the question: is he Catholic? He never struck me as the religious type. VERY spiritual, yes, but not religious.

Why do I never find good things to ponder when I DON'T have papers to write? (because you make very good points)

[phineasjones.livejournal.com]

I KNOW! that's always bugged me. he doesn't seem catholic to me. which is an odd thing to say, i'm sure. but we never get any other hint that he might be. hmmmm... i wonder if we could tell what kind of church his father's funeral is in...

yeah, i have major work due tomorrow too, can you tell? :)

[ainsley.livejournal.com]

He always struck me as the church of the great outdoors sort myself, but I could have spent too much time lusting after the unfortunately named Byron Sully in my formative years.

I have a 20-30 page paper due Thursday. I haven't started the RESEARCH.

Which of course means I'm fucked, but damn if I can find the hottie doing the fucking (I refuse to believe it's all me).

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

I would be shocked if Fraser was Catholic, honestly. His father and the stories of his grandparents definitely give off strict Protestant ethic to me. (Also, am I wrong in thinking the reason he knows Chinese is because his grandparents were missionaries there?)

I wonder if the confession thing is connected to his friendship to Ray Vecchio -- seeing it as *something*, some way of attempting to be forgiven.

[ainsley.livejournal.com]

Good call on the grandparents. I still don't see him in church on Sundays. Obviously he'd be up, but would he spend that time sitting in a crowded room, or in activity?

I can see him as seeking penance and solace anywhere he can find it, because he's spent years failing to forgive himself.

[graycastle.livejournal.com]

Fraser, why are you giving your wolf spaghetti?

omg, more like, Fraser, why are you giving your wolf PANCAKE BATTER in that episode where the landlord turns off the gas? I wtf every time I see that.

[pearl-o.livejournal.com]

Man, seriously, ALL grain-based-foodstuffs should be avoided for your carnivores! I hope he doesn't feed him oatmeal for breakfast, too.